ROURKE - Beliefs are mercurial things. They direct our lives and choices, moment by moment. They’re stowaways to the imagination emporium. Harnessed to hunches, polished with proof. They’re like clothing we can’t afford. They elevate us, yet are not ours to keep. We discard them when they no longer serve our needs, or we find out they weren't real at all. This story is extraordinary. Especially, if it’s true. And it all started in the desert, just north of Las Vegas.

CORBELL - Do you believe in UFOs by the way?

ROURKE - I don’t know. I don’t know. It’ like … I would like to. I don’t … I think … when I was younger I thought there was no such thing; and now that I’m older I think - why should we - It’s so imperfect here. And there’s so much turmoil, and there’s so much horror. There’s so much evil. I’d like to think there is, other places that are maybe a little better. I don’t think you don’t get to see that place till you die.

CORBELL - I hope we do get to see it when we die.

ROURKE - Well if you don’t you’ll never know (laughter)

CORBELL - The biggest roadblock to understanding, is the ability to dismiss someone because you don’t see them as human… as a person, so… what pisses you off?

LAZAR - I mean, disinformation and lies, and attacks that have no basis in reality. I mean, you can disagree with me and say, “Hey, I don’t believe that”. That’s fine. I haven’t presented you with enough information. And I understand that and I would probably be in your position. But don’t fabricate stuff. There’s some important information that needs to be released. And everybody needs to understand the truth to it, and not distorted versions of it. You really need to pay attention to what I’m saying. Because I have better things to do than come up with this. I’m not interested in doing this. I don’t like being in the public eye. I don’t get money for doing this. And quite frankly I could make up a better lie, but I have no motivation to lie. This hasn’t helped me out. It’s done something that… it’s information that I’m releasing, and that’s it.

CORBELL - It’s not an ordinary life.

LAZAR - That’s something I would like. I don’t like living in a James Bond movie; I like WATCHING James bond movies.

CORBELL - People have been trying to minimize who you are. People have been trying to trivialize who you are. People have been trying to twist your story based on absolutely absurd things. That’s gotta wear on people to a point. You gotta set certain things straight. 

LAZAR - It’s time to pull things out by the roots. Just to get things reset, and get people familiar with the story and who I am… and this is what’s true. The divergence has increased, just over time. I’m trying to tell you exactly the way things were. I mean, what I was exposed to. You think there something more secret than that, that the flying saucers are a coverup for? Some of this stuff just sounds crazy to me. I understand, I’m biased because I’m behind my eyes and see everything… but this is, this is crazy S%@T (BLEEP).

LAZAR - You know I'm a scientist and when I look at other questionable information or other interesting information, I have to follow the scientific method. And look if I … it has to be reproducible and with proof and, look I can't lay out all the proof to make it unquestionably true ... so according to the rules of science you're obligated NOT to believe it until I can.  So yeah, I'm not saying believe the story I'm saying this happened to me, I'm sorry I can't prove it ... without going back in time and bringing you there. So ... you know ... just let it be. I don't really care if you believe it or not ... it's just kind of a report would happen to me.

CORBELL - What's your name and what do you do for a living?

KRANGLE - Dr. Krangle and I'm an engineering physicist.

CORBELL - In your professional capacity what can you tell me about your history?

KRANGLE - Well my bachelors is from New York Institute of technology, my doctorate is from MIT.

CORBELL - Can you tell me some of the laboratories that you have done contracting work for?

KRANGLE - Pretty much all of them. Air Force Weapons Lab, Sandia labs, several different areas at Sandia … area 5, area 3 ... Los Alamos. I've done work with White Sands. I've been out even as far as California, you know where China Lake is?  You know, Ridgecrest.  I've done some testing out at China lake. One of the things that I do is a company will call and say, we want to do this test project, how do we set up the test? We want to measure X, what equipment do we need and how do we set that up? And that's the gap that I fill.

CORBELL - One of the reasons why I was introduced to you, was because you're not into this world that I'm investigating that includes, ufology, advanced propulsion systems. But one thing that I was told is that, was that not only did you have some work that you did at Los Alamos, but additionally that you somehow met Bob Lazar. What was your first interaction with LAZAR and where was it?

KRANGLE - Well it wasn't much of an interaction. It was one of these things, you know, meetings ... like security meetings. You know, you have to go to that once every week or every couple of weeks ... and they give you the usual briefing, "Don't talk about what you're doing. Don't talk about what you see." So Lazar, we didn't work together, but you know cafeteria kind of thing ... you know you pass 'em in some of the "commanders call" if you will ... you know meetings ... you pass 'em ... so yeah, he was up there.

CORBELL - And about what year was it that you remember seeing him?

KRANGLE - To pin it down, certainly in the 80s. Probably earlier than late 80s.

CORBELL - What's interesting to me is that you're saying, that you would run across Lazar at a security meeting … "Don't talk about this. Don't talk about that" … or in the cafeteria.  Was it your impression that he was a concessions stand salesman, or a janitor?

KRANGLE - He was dressed wrong to be the janitor (laughter).

CORBELL - Okay, so how did you know Bob and in what capacity was he there working from your knowledge? What was he at Los Alamos?

KRANGLE - Well he was a physicist which, I'm a physicist. We kind of recognize each other. You know it's the classic pocket condom with all the proper different color pens (laughter) ... he fit that mold. If nobody would've told me he was a physicist, one look, [you would know] he's a physicist. He's properly dressed in geekdome.

CORBELL - Did people tell you he's a physicist? Was it ever explained to you?

KRANGLE - In some conversations, you know, somebody would be talking about what somebody was doing … and they'd point over ... and that's him over there.

CORBELL - You have a direct individual memory of being in a security briefing at Los Alamos with Bob Lazar?

KRANGLE - Yeah, I remember seeing him.

CORBELL - Why would he be there if he wasn't working in capacity with that was important?

KRANGLE - Yeah, I don't think they bring the janitor in … yeah.

CORBELL - Okay. Because I just want to kind of, demystify that once and for all.

CORBELL - What was your impression of what Bob was doing at Los Alamos in the 80s?

KRANGLE - Well, at the time I was there, I really didn't know what specifically Bob was doing, we didn't work together, we simply crossed paths … at least in glancing view.  I didn't know what he was up to anymore than he knew what I was up to.

CORBELL - But you did know that he was a physicist?


CORBELL - And that was very clear to you, that he was a physicist at Los Alamos and not again like, the janitor?

KRANGLE - Right. And in conversations with some of my colleagues ... you know again sitting over lunch, we would be talking about something something happening or, who's doing something. It's okay to talk amongst yourselves, your just not allowed to tell your wife or your kids what you're doing.  And somebody would lean over and say that's Bob over there ... he working on something something project.

CORBELL - So did you get any other impressions? You've described him very well, he's kinda got the Hawking's face, he stands out, he's got the pocket protector, he's a physicist working at Los Alamos … Is there anything else that stood out about Bob?

KRANGLE - Yeah one of the fellas was telling me about him building a jet car.

CORBELL - It's so fascinating to me to talk with somebody who's not, you know, drank the Kool-Aid ... who doesn't know the whole story, or who's really really into it. And [who] says, "I worked there. I saw Bob." He stood out to you somehow.

KRANGLE - And I understand how Los Alamos would blackball him. He committed professional suicide.

CORBELL - In what way?

KRANGLE - By doing that video that he did, where he was talking about the craft that he had exposure to. He went into quite a little tutorial on how a matter / antimatter engine might work. Which is how they get enough energy to power and energy in that craft to do what they wanted to do. And he broke the code. He broke from the fold. He talked about it. That's it, that's a death sentence.

CORBELL - Why is it a death sentence?

KRANGLE - Within that security community, it's just that mentality that's up there. Of ... "Don't talk about what you do".

CORBELL - By Bob publicly talking about his experience with the work that he did, not at Los Alamos but south of Groom Lake, he was committing sort of …

KRANGLE - Professional suicide.

CORBELL - Professional suicide. Because you get blacklisted for doing that.

KRANGLE - That's right.

CORBELL - I believe Bob. And I have reason to believe Bob. All the evidence has suggested that he's "A", Telling the truth and "B", that people try to smear his name and try to demote his scientific abilities in peoples minds.

KRANGLE - Look at Snowden. Had Snowden not done what he did, he would be the great kid that's doing the intelligence gathering. But he broke from the fold. And Bob is essentially the same thing as Snowden. He broke from the fold. But at least he's managed to keep going, I mean, where do you go from engineering physics at Los Alamos if you can't stay with in your discipline? I mean, what do you do, open up a TV and radio repair shop? Or go deliver pizzas?

CORBELL - You open United Nuclear.

KRANGLE - That's right.

CORBELL - What is your name and what is your relationship to Bob Lazar.

MARIO - My name is Mario Santa Cruz. And I met Bob actually in my neighborhood. He lived like one block over. My attraction to Bob was his Jet Dragster. I saw this Jet Dragster, sitting out in front of his house in our neighborhood. Just the Jet Dragster alone was rare - but in my neighborhood to see something like that was unbelievable.

CORBELL - People were harassing Bob, threatening him. And you were with him for one of those experiences; at least one.

MARIO - A couple of times actually. I actually had a weapon with me when we rode together because he had been shot at. He just wanted to stay alive; that’s why he exposed himself. How he pulled out of it, he dug deep. It’s a pretty incredible story.